Liberal anti-Catholic Cardinal does not know if Jesus would approve homosexual marriage if Jesus were here today?!!! I do not know, I do not make assumptions, no valid conclusion!! Leaves one Speechless! Welcome to Newchurch Bergoglio, where we should gather, listen to people, get involved. Sodomy (unnatural marriage) is an Abomination to God. A sin that cries to heaven for vengeance as per the book of Leviticus chapter 18, and his reply is, I do not know! The time for denial is over, the enemies of the Catholic Church are no longer outside the Church, they are within! Haereticus!
Two passages of the interview by Cardinal Hummes that are cause for concern…
If Jesus is still alive he would be in favor of gay marriage?
I do not know, I do not make assumptions. Who should answer is the Church as a whole. We must be careful not to address the issues individually, because that ends up making it more difficult to arrive at valid conclusions. I think we should gather, listen to people, get involved, we bishops. And ‘the Church must indicate the path and everyone must have a path.
The ordination of women and mandatory celibacy
The problem of the matter is that Jesus did not want to choose any woman as an apostle. We do not know why. Following John Paul II has made the issue even more complicated because at one point he said that the Catholic Church has no reason to do so. If the Church will find the reasons may be that the matter be reviewed!! The issue of mandatory celibacy is much easier, because there have always been married priests in the Eastern Churches, or between Anglicans are back in the Catholic Church two years ago.
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Cláudio Hummes: “I’m just a friend of the Pope and that’s enough.” Archbishop Emeritus of São Paulo is one of the leading directors of the top leader of the Catholic Church
Last year, when the world was surprised by the announcement of the first Latin American pope, Hummes appeared smiling next to the Argentine Jorge Bergoglio, a Jesuit who, inspired by the Brazilian Cardinal chose rightly be called Francisco. Archbishop Emeritus of São Paulo, Hummes was appointed as chief articulator Election Bergoglio.
About to turn 80, Hummes this interview makes a positive assessment of the pontificate of Francis, who exchange letters and meets when traveling to Rome. Talk about controversial issues like celibacy and pedophilia gay marriage and says trust that the Pope will make necessary reforms in the Church, but urges patience.
What assessment do you make these 16 month reign of Francis?
Very positively. We all know he was a great gift to the Church. It is a vitality, an ability to feel, to live the reality of approaching people and get in their lives. He has an extraordinary charisma and a great love for the poor. For him, it is essential that the Church can go to the outskirts, go to those outside of any great human process that progresses. In choosing the name, he says that, because St. Francis is the man of the poor, peace and ecology.
At the conclave, you were sitting next to the Bergoglio. When he got two-thirds vote, was one of the first to greet him and said the phrase that inspired the choice of the name Francisco: “Do not forget the poor.” What went through your mind at that moment?
I could not tell it because it is the secret conclave, but the Pope, once elected, is no longer subject to the secrecy of the conclave. Thus he had sufficient votes, there was that applause, I hugged him – he was sitting to my right – and told him in what came to me at the time heard. Had not prepared anything. I always say it was the Holy Spirit who spoke because he had not imagined such repercussions within it. I think if we want to be faithful to Jesus Christ, we can not forget the poor. Pope prays for peace constantly and now is writing an encyclical on ecology.
Since the beginning of the papacy of Francis, was at his side Hummes | Photo: Vincenzo Pinto / AFP
How did this friendship of yours?
I know Cardinal Bergoglio of meetings in Rome. I’ve never been in his house in Buenos Aires, and he’s never been in mine, because it’s not far to travel. We work in the Aparecida conference in 2007, which lasted almost 20 days. It was there that we met more, but we were already friends. He always was a very quiet man, did not like to appear. It was as pope, suddenly, something happened and he became a man with both social charisma, communication.
The invitation to be beside the Pope, in his first public appearance, was a gesture of recognition for his role as articulator Election Bergoglio?
He never said anything about it, no one ever spoke. There is no way to talk about it, because it happened inside the conclave. The Pope just said I’m a great friend. He dressed poorly, did not want to sit on the throne. All these gestures to show that he does not want pomp. He called me and said, “Don Claudio, want you to be by my side this time.” And I went, but he did not explain anything. Until today, I never said anything. Of course I was very happy, and the Cardinals very surprised because no cardinal goes beside the Pope at that time.
After this scene, there was speculation that you could take some important post in the Curia.Were you invited?
No, no. I’m just a friend of Pope. And that’s enough. I’m doing 80, so … No way(laughs) After 80 years, run functions for the Cardinals. I only mentioned by him, last year, to be the special envoy to Paraguay for 25 years canonization of Father Roque.
What’s in common, besides the name, between Francis of Assisi and Francis of Rome?
There is a lot in common. In Buenos Aires, Bergoglio was present in the slums and had a lot of work, many years there. I always say that the Pope found his identity. Not that it started from there being Francisco. He was already Francisco before and it clicked. His past was that, although Jesuit. He is a man deeply dedicated to the poor.
Bergoglio, as St. Francis of Assisi, has the mission to repair a “Church in ruins”?
Of course. He never stated that, but he knows that phrase, and certainly that’s very challenging.
How will this rebuild?
He says the Church needs reform. And this is a very strong word in the Church.Because of the Protestant Reformation, eventually becoming a word too much weight. But he uses this word, and says the Church needs reform not just institutional structures, but on what is humanly exceeded it and the new challenges. He says that these reforms were requested by the cardinals, those three days of meetings before the conclave. Many things were suggested. The Pope is now making these reforms, starting with the bank and the Vatican Curia.
What other reforms asked?
There were more collegiality, that the bishops were summoned to have more voice in the government of the universal Church. The council had said it, only then gradually went away centralizing everything in Rome. Many things can be resolved by the local dioceses, by local ecclesiastical courts. Not everything needs to be assignment of the Roman Curia, which will centralize, and we know that these things are automatic. For you control everything, you centralizes all.The Pope wants a more missionary Church, able to break down walls and build bridges. He says we made walls and people can no longer enter the Church. Not only are laws to be reformed, but the very way of being church and doing evangelism.
There is the possibility of changes on issues such as celibacy, divorce, homosexuality and women’s ordination?
Some things he has clearly stated that it has no way to move, like abortion, because it is the elimination of human lives. About the celibacy of priests, has said he is not a dogma, and therefore the Church can rethink!! But that has not entered into discussion. What is now at stake is the question of the family, and then enter themes as couples second marriage, this issue of family types and what the laws begin to call family. And also how to support families so they can live the gospel within a secular society. A large questionnaire was sent, and there is another novelty of it, because he insisted that this questionnaire – which has already been answered – were also given to the laity. In October, will have the extraordinary synod that will address this issue. and in October of next year, the ordinary.
A recurring request is for the Pope to pray for him. Do you think he will find resistance to the reforms?
Certainly perplexing. I would not say explicit, public, perhaps a bit of resistance from low resistance. That is human. But the Pope says he also wants to hear those who do not agree because it makes us think, have more light and balance in solutions.
Hope deposited in pope Francisco can not turn into frustration in the future?
I would not speak in the future, because it is complicated speculating. I have a very strong hope. Of course he will not do all the renovations that each hold because sometimes contradictory things are expected. But he says that what the Cardinals are trying to do he asked. For the Brazilian bishops, when Pope was on youth day, he asked them to bold proposals.
The bishops will be able to make bold proposals?
I hope so. We have to sit down and discuss what we propose to the Pope, he says, that means Porteño Spanish, whatever “corajudas proposals.”
What proposal would you do?
Decentralization is key to actually renew the Church.
Fundamental or bold?
Also bold. Because you must wrest power from those who have it on hand. And it’s not just the Pope who has power, is the Roman Curia.
Curia, the Pope said to be the “leprosy of Popery” …
When she turns Court. Curia has to be a service and not a power. And humanly always tend to turn power rather than service in any government we see it.
Something changed in the Church after the declarations of Francisco about homosexuals? If a homosexual couple seek a parish, you may receive the sacraments or be godfather at a christening, for example?
I do not know how they are acting in practical reality. The Pope said a very important word: “If a homosexual seeking God, who am I to judge?” The person must be respected. If she has a homosexual orientation, what that means in her life? She actually has to live their lives with dignity. In this issue of baptism, do not know how bishops are applying it, because, in itself, has nothing to do with it, unless it was a public sinner, say, it was a complicated person accordingly. The Godfather is one that should help educate religiously, and a person who has a sexual orientation can be a saint. If he lives the gospel within its conditions, it can be a saint. In theory, there’s nothing otherwise.
The Pope gives the host declarations, but the rules of the Church are mutually exclusive. How do you see the issue?
Of course, we have to go slowly. Not everything is done from one day to another. Why Pope urges: “We must think together, we need to discuss together” to get to have, in fact, an orientation that meets the people and what Jesus Christ teaches us. We should not hurry. It is the Church who has to lead the way and not the individual person wanting to make reforms. So we have to have patience, but the fact that he opened these ports shows that the church is really trying to be more positive on these issues.
If Jesus were alive today, he would be in favor of gay marriage?
I do not know, make no assumption about it!! Who should answer that is the Church as a whole. We must take care not to be raising issues individually because it ends up creating more trouble we get a conclusion that is valid. I think we have to get together, listen to the people, in their own game, the bishops. It is the Church that should indicate the paths, and there must be way to everyone.
The Catholic Church has been losing an average of one percentage point per year in Brazil faithful. What explains this phenomenon and how to stop it?
There are many reasons. The people who migrate to the Catholic Church Pentecostal, Protestant, evangelical has its reasons. You need to listen and analyze why. I think it has to do with finding solutions to serious problems in their lives, they have people who suffer from a lack of health care, for example.Then they will seek cures for blessings, exorcisms because some say that the disease is the result of the devil. The people who have no recourse search anywhere minimal hope. Might as well be you have been disappointed with the lack of attention and care within the Catholic Church. We wonder if we are not very distant from people. Certainly, one reason is that the Church was expecting much people come up to her and was not to meet people.
How the Church must address the shortage of priests? It is still possible to awaken priestly vocations in the world today?
It is possible, but not as much as before. The situation in Latin America is still better than in many other countries, because it is a very religious and Catholic continent. In Europe, for example, there is a very large void. In about 15 years, will be a desert fathers. It is a matter, therefore, that the Church urgently have to face – the pope knows this – and look for ways to stir it.
Allow the ordination of women, as did a few days ago the Anglican Church of England, would not be an alternative?
The problem with this question is that Jesus Christ, in fact, did not choose any women among the apostles. We do not know the reasons. After Pope John Paul II has made even more difficult question, because at one point he said that the Catholic Church has no business doing this. If the Church find reasons, you may review!! But the issue of mandatory celibacy is much simpler, because there have always been married priests in the Eastern church, and even those who returned from Anglican to Catholic two years ago.
Recently, Pope Francis first received at the Vatican victims of sexual abuse by priests. How to move from discourse to practice, actually fighting pedophilia in the Church?
But the Catholic Church is doing it very tightly. You need to give it time. This Pope says clearly that, to pedophilia, is zero tolerance. This means that the Church will do everything in their power so that, actually, it is extinguished. It is unacceptable to the Church that there ordained ministers pedophiles. Many people have been laid off because of it.
Don Claudio participated in struggles of social movements | Photo: Claudiomiro Teodoro / Leaf Picture
When he was bishop of St. Andrew, you faced the military regime to defend workers and support the ABC strikes …
It was difficult and challenging. There was no security at all. You could turn the corner and be arrested, but I was never arrested, only threatened. It was a time, of course, very difficult. Interesting that repression never entered the Church.The assemblies of the workers were made within the church, they surrounded him, but did not enter. I had to give shelter to people who were being persecuted, they were in danger.
Was an option for a career that led him to move away from social movements, becoming more moderate?
(Laughter) No, no. Certainly not. I do not think I’ve changed. I never abandoned the positions they had and undoubtedly the refaria. I’ve always been alongside workers and their big claims. With the return to democracy, the people have a voice again, and the Church was no longer needed. Of course there was, within the Church, more radical people who thought the fight had to go, kept saying the same speeches and proposals. We do not have the ideal situation of democracy today, but democracy is growing and therefore we have to walk together. In the meantime, the world has changed, the changed Lula, the PT has changed, everything has changed – not all for the better (laughs) . So this most radical people began to say that the Church was no longer the same, that the gift Claudius was no longer in favor of workers as then. I understand quietly in the background but never changed.
The “bishop of the workers” – the nickname that you received for supporting the strikes ABC – expect more of PT governments, party you saw born from this movement?
The PT I saw birth is no longer the PT today. The PT has changed a lot, of course I have many contents that time. A lot of people joined that party later and gave new features. Many people came to the average intellectual class, and they had a lot of weight, because they had prepared. With this, the party became quite.
In what sense?
One of the things I think you should think about a lot is how much power should be the main and constant goal. Exercise power, be opposition or government, the party should be able to do both when needed. How is that democracy supports a very prolonged power of a single party? I have no solution for this, but this should be reflected in the name of democracy, the welfare of the people. Another aspect that is always a risk is to begin to centralize power. So, you run the risk of a greater statism, and that has to be constantly analyzed, because the tendency is that, even in the Roman Curia.You begin to centralize all power to control. This ends up being a power, not a service, and the government is serving the country.
As the sun Claudius, who had a reputation for subversive in the 80s, became one of the favorites to succeed Pope John Paul II, the conclave of 2005?
But John Paul II was not the one who defended Solidarity, all those unions.One does not contradict the other. Bergoglio is also a social man, just read the text of it.
You even said after the election of Ratzinger that he was relieved not to have been chosen.How come?
This office of pope is such a heavy thing. The human forces are not sufficient, a man just can not do everything that is demanding the pope. It is a humanly unbearable ministry, nobody can carry that weight. That also means that we are too demanding of the pope, especially a person who already has a certain age.It’s really a very, very heavy ministry. And besides, you have to have to have quality preparation, qualification.
Hummes became Cardinal at the hands of John Paul II | Photo: personal archive
Do you think they would be prepared for the mission?
I speak not of hypotheses. This is page turning.
Benedict XVI’s resignation was caused by this weight, further burdened by accusations of corruption in the Vatican?
Yes, yes. He said he had no more physical and mental, psychological conditions to carry that weight forward.
How would you define in a single word, the Francis Benedict XVI and John Paul II popes?
Francisco is a great shepherd; Benedict XVI was a great teacher of the faith, a theologian who enlightened us the doctrine, the gospel; and John Paul II was a universal missionary who traveled the world. He delighted in this mighty and friendly, able to find all the peoples and cultures shape. Without forgetting that he was a major player in the fall of the iron curtain of socialism in Eastern Europe.
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